I sure do love 45acp though. There are many fine little Girls Guns in 380 cal. Fragmentation cannot reliably be counted upon with handgun wounds because of the comparatively low velocity of handgun rounds. Copyright 2023 Now they have announced they are moving back to the 9mm in the form of the new Gen5 Glock 17M. Please dont send me any hate mail. Somebody needs to vet their sources of information and also use a little common sense. But I think the bigger point to be made is that it would not be wise to make a decision on a pistol or caliber simply because it is bigger, and therefore more manly. It should be made based on the merits and actual performance of the different calibers and/or pistols. If you have been hit with any kind of bullet large, fast, expanding, or otherwise please fill out our survey about your experience after being shot. Immediately retired the Glock 17 and requalified with a Glock 21 Gen 4 after a long break. Officer Needs Help!!! In Sicily had m14 auto and bi pod. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! the article mentions that where a bullet hits the human body is also a major factor on whether it inflicts a mortal wound. Okay, I have to give them props on this part of the statement because this is 100% correct. Thanks for reading and commenting!! In winter I concealed carry a 1911. Many of the debate points industry experts and defense folks make are moot. Because head shots are rare and extremely difficult, and torso hits are likewise difficult and do not result in immediate incapacitation, choosing handgun bullets for officers is a critically important task. 45 stopping power! Opinions all ! But it is no longer valid against todays terrorists, and the mindset they fight with. Math is absolute and backs what Ive stated. A pilot was shot and killed by a .45acp in WWII. THE FOWDYFIVE IS THE LORDS CALIBER!!! CAN I GET AN AMEN?!? (that was actually a thing btw, Im not I still prefer the .45. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. Some of the best handgun calibers for self defense are: To adequately understand the efficiency of incapacitating a target, we must have some basic understanding of the mechanics of wounding how damage to the human body works. You shoot when you can, at the place you most want. .45 acp is a good round and I prefer it used in close quarter environments becuse it is heavier and pack more energy. A .45 ACP will encounter greater resistance than a 9mm, but it also carries more weight, albeit at a slower velocity. But in summer I have just discovered the Sig Sauer P938, a 9mm 7+1 with extended magazine. I hadnt even gotten halfway through the article before coming to the same conclusion. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage, Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License, Best Self-Defense Caliber and Damage to the Human Body, Effectiveness of Bullet Wounds: How Gunshot Wounds Work, What Happens When You Get Shot: Damage to the Human Body. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. The 9mm is a typical government one-size-fits-all solution. The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. 10..again 10 rounds landed on target. Yes, yeas I have. George. F=MA is not applicable. Let me suggest that politics might be at play. Military ball ammo leaves some things to be desired. Much more likely is that you will be suddenly and unexpectedly attacked by a rapidly and unpredictably moving target with limited opportunities for counter attack. Theres not the penetration of a 9, because the mass of energy is transferred suddenly to the body in impact. F = MA is absolutely true as it applies to ballistics. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Hodgkinson was armed with a rifle that shot 7.62 caliber bullets. Theres no reason to mince words a handgun for self defense exists to create damage to the human body. I will address the people shooting the weapons in the military. The objective of this study was to construct a Police usually shoot from a distance. Which things can be argued, but more important is being able to handle what you have. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. Really late to the discussion. So banter on gentlemen. I think its preference and if you can conceal it. Every round has its purpose. People have died from hitting their head just right after slipping at their desk,kitchen. Thats funny. Been involved in violent life or death confrontations for well over 40 years. Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. Its not our opinion that makes us right. I hear arguments attempting to compare a 9mm Gold dot bullet (a hollow point expanding bullet) to a .45 Hydrashock bullet (a hollow cavity expanding bullet with a hardened sabot embedded in the cavity. At that long distance, the .223 will slam into its target with almost twice the speed of the .22. Cheap crap. You're Dead: 5 Deadliest Bullets In The World They're just as important as the gun that fires them. Hit your enemy Quickly and Hes Dead. Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. 45 standard velocity is 850 to 900 fps, NOT 500 fps. and departments. WebYes, definitely. Everyone talking about knock down power verses speed seems like. If I were young I would consider a compact 45, but at 73. Dan, your and many others comments ring true. Circulatory collapse will result in significant deprivation of oxygen to the brain. Ive never liked Glock its sure a well made gun but definitely NOT the best gun Ive shot. I immediately thought, I think Ive been shot. Took about 1Min until the shock yielded to the pain. I carried an issue 45. The amount of energy deposited in the body by a bullet is approximately equivalent to being hit with a baseball.. Dr. Leana Wen, a trauma surgeon and the health commissioner for Baltimore, wrote a column in the New York Times about the especially devastating effects of expanding rounds: often pulverizing bones, tearing blood vessels and liquefying organs. She remembered one young man who was admitted to her emergency room with an abdominal wound from a hollow-point round. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. I have several. A sniper friend said once if bigger is better throw bricks he was using a 243 cal not a 300 win mag nor a Lupa 338. Got to love 45 in Army Guard 21 years. While typical SKS rifles do not qualify as assault weapons because they have a fixed magazine and stock and lack a pistol grip, Hodgkinsons gun would have met the criteria. There are far too many different considerations and circumstances between self-defense necessities and military/LE necessities to list in a comment section; but theyre important distinctions. The biggest determining factors were and have always been budget and of course, what the inept FBI is carrying. PS: I forgot to mention that as a SAW gunner I was allowed to carry an old .45 (Springfield Armory). I just make it my business to shoot all handgun cartridges well out to 25yards. The 9mm travels a great deal faster than the .45, with average muzzle velocity averaging between 1100-1200 FPS. People kill people. WebOP you had it right for penetration, 7.62 > 9mm > .45. In their book, Defense of Self and Others, FBI firearms training experts John Hall and Urey Patrick (ret. What you provide is false true and true. While psychological factors incapacitate more assailants than physiological factors, they are also the primary reason for a failure to incapacitate. The FBI subsequently transitioned from revolvers to semi auto .40 caliber handguns with S&W .40 caliber bullets (a slightly shorter version of the 10mm round). This is why officers typically carry as many shoulder weapons as possible in their cars. I just had to get my 2 cents in. In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. Glad you are doing well. He is the author of two published books on deadly force and an upcoming book on supervisory and municipal liability in law enforcement. While the classic .45 ACP round is large, its also relatively slow, with an average velocity of 850-900 FPS for most types of ammo. Leave it to a bunch of idiot Marines to bring a pistol to a rifle fight. Wound-cavity analysis tells a similar story concerning the .380 ACP, with individuals shot by the round able to function seconds to minutes after being shot. Heating effects, occurring mostly around 2.45 GHz (which is the frequency used in microwave ovens) Ionizing effects, which can damage human body and cells; Here is a picture of how the radiowaves penetrate the human body according to the frequency. We had a good chuckle out of that one. That much is true. Hi, I have both. It depends where they get hit. My father was hit in the arm with a .50 bmg round during the Falklands war and it took his arm off from below the el Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. 3, both hemolymph ACP and AKP activities of P. clarkii were significantly decreased in the 30 and 50 mg/L groups compared to the control (P < 0.01).Similarly, PO activity also exhibited a significant reduction in the 30 mg/L group (P < 0.05) and the 50 mg/L group (P < 0.01), respectively.However, LZM activity showed a significant increase Long time reloader right here as well which is why I couldnt believe when I read what I did in that other articleclearly someone that doesnt understand how these things work!! I am sure the debate will go on till the last Cockroach dies . This story of a Chicago-suburb police officer should answer that one for you. Guy KEPT COMING and managed to shoot back twice. I served in the USMC and in combat. Project: Aftermath Wiki. My personal opinion is that the military has found that many recruits are unable to accurately fire the .45 and cannot manage the recoil. That isnt to say that the .45 is much better. Just as in the case of the military, my agencies biggest determining factors for this decision were not anything to do with the performance of the rounds or the effectiveness for the safety of the officer. WebThey could balance it by decreasing the damage of other pistol cartridges, like for example, Intermediate cartridges like 7.62x39/5.56x45 could one tap the upper torso and 2 tap lower torso, the .45 ACP could 2 tap torso, dealing just shy the amount of damage required to kill upper torso, include a large penalty with that. Chiverss history of the assault rifle, The Gun: In the macabre world of terminal ballistics, the study of what happens when projectiles actually strike, much can be made of over-penetration: the phenomenon of bullets passing clean through their targets. Probably not, but here is my take on the ol' 9mm vs 45 ACP debate. He is an NRA Pistol Instructor, a Colorado P.O.S.T. Damage: 62. I carried a 1911 in Vietnam as well as a 12 ga. .45 stayed on the hip. Every shooting incident is a unique and unreplicable event. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. You are up close and personal with this guy. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. But honestly, if you cannnot conceal a 1911 you cant conceal a G19.. Thats a bs statement, I know this because I carry concealed and my 1911 conceals just as well as a single stack 9mm compact. All rights reserved. Some bullets are so fast, they dont deliver the force of the bullet. It is often said in sports talk, that the game is a game of inches. This is also true in life and death gun battles like the FBI Miami shootout. I like my Colt GOV. If it doesnt get deleted for my impatience with thoughtless comments. (stress free situation) I also have a sig, p38 and carry that when its warm out.hightly concealable in a alien gear holster. 0.177" Steel air gun dart will penetrate to shank, in skin, at 120 ft/s. The wider bullet also creates a bigger cavity in whatever it passes through. One person might be able to control themselves and squeeze off a headshot. The Marine Corps Times is not published by the Marine Corps. Oh, and Sgt. At The Trace, we examine what happens after bullets are sold, shot, and wound human beings. In the woods my .45 r1 with cast is what I carry. sledgehammer. Thanks for reading and applying some little used common sense to the debate. Not everyone can adequately conceal a full-sized Colt 1911. Core, you touch on something that I have often thought about. Bowman, Come join the discussion about optics, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! Practice thats all it takes. Im sure many hunters can attest to the expansion of rifle bullets recovered from their game. This type of damage is known as permanent cavity. But I have some serious doubts about his understanding of external and terminal ballistics. Are there exceptions? I believe you are in some way getting a kick back from someone, wanting to push the idea that the 9mm is more affective than the 45. Your body will make the shot while your mind hesitates every time! I only want to pull the trigger 1-3 times. Handgun velocities top out at around 1,500 fps at the muzzle. I assume that it is cost that is the main concern. My bottom line is to shoot what you shoot the best. After receiving this wound, Platt initiated a devastating attack upon the surrounding FBI agents, killing two (including Agent Dove) and severely wounding two more. People like the OP of the TIFU have been shot right above their heart and lungs, with .223 and despite a nasty, nasty exit wound and the shot placement, walked it off. Skorpion Ammo Type: 9 mm. Glocks are cheap and reliable. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. Police, f.b.i., military have smaller people with smaller hands that need to be accomadated. You will find that when tested in this manner the 45acp will out perform the 9mm hands down. Also ALL handgun calibers are susceptible to ricochet especially when compared to rifle rounds. That has been the best comment so far. Either work for me, and if I had to choose only one it would be 9mm just for the capacity. Just as many others I was forced throughout a 25 yr L.E. We need to dial back our expectations of how effective a pistol is, regardless of caliber, barring brain or spine shots. The fact is, 9mm is fast and cheap, .45acp is big and just as effective if not more, given the wound channel is gonna be much larger than that of a 9mm. Bob. I totally agree about shot placement. Most people get creatine through seafood and red meat though at levels far below those found in synthetically made creatine supplements. You get the idea. But the US never officially ratified these protocols, and is not officially bound by them. When the .223 exits the barrel of a gun, it flies at more than 3,200 feet per second, and is still going 1,660 feet per second after traveling 500 yards. The question isnt how many people die from being hit with a certain a round, but rather what do they do immediately after being hit?. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. you should read TIFU my boss shot me reddit. Sudden, immediate and even instant death. Over the years I have owned and carried many 1911s. The reason is recoil. WebRock Island Armory 1911 Rock Ultra CS Fiber Optic 45 ACP Sub-Compact 7-Round Pistol $ 679 99 679 dollars 99 cents $ 699 99 699 dollars 99 cents. But thats a subject for another article. All rights reserved. He is the current USPSA Carry Optics Colorado State Champion and most recently won 3rd place in Master Class at the 2022 USPSA Carry Optics National Championship. Thats why were here right? I owned a 9mm years ago and liked the gun, though the grip was too large for me due to the double stack magazine. The larger a projectiles surface area, the greater its ability to transfer its energy to the target, instead of simply penetrating straight through. And the department is no small one. Im not going to begin to discuss the variables between the two calibers and cartridge designs but statistics released from DOJ shows that larger cartridges are more effective at stopping Humans per round on target. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. A .22 will kill you, but it wont blow your head apart, he said. Thats right George. So I want a round that will do the trick no matter if he flinches or I do. Among other things, this makes it ineffective against body armor. I am not aware of any hollowpoints that were designed to expand on the way to the target. On the other hand, a .22 that you can carry easily and put into operation quickly and shoot accurately is probably not a good defense gun/round because to do enough damage requires brain-shot accuracy with each shot. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? A 4 inch Redhawk 45 colt loaded with 24 grains of H100 under a 335 grain Cast performance sledgehammer should be good against the largest carnivore Todd. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Whats more, for those who are considering purchasing a firearm for home defense, but have not yet done so, it is important to know what kind of firearm is appropriate for your needs. So modern ammo IS NOT the reason to switch back to the 9mm. The FBI just did the same thing. I also do not understand why the M&P was disqualified, but it could be that other manufacturers guns have already been eliminated as well. When the. Desert Eagle Ammo Type: .45 ACP. But this cartridge uses a half-grain bullet compared to 9mm. Were investigating how it spends its money. A 5 psi blast overpressure will rupture eardrums in about 1% of subjects, and a 45 psi overpressure will cause eardrum rupture in about 99% of all subjects. Then you missed. R45 Ammo Type: .45 ACP. What I find more often than not is, in cases of 9mm shootings, unless its a head-shot or perfectly placed shot to the sternum, victims rarely drop where theyre shot and are often found blocks away from where the original shooting took place police actually have to trace blood droppings back to their origin to find the initial crime scene. The gunman was able to inflict such extensive damage from across a baseball field because he was using a semiautomatic rifle that may have qualified as an assault weapon, akin to a standard infantry combat weapon. This represents a cultural shift in America. With the spine on the backside with the arteries running along it, coupled with the obesity of the fast food hoodlum, that penetration was considered more key. At 70, I choose to go small & straight! There were 3 casings in the bathroom and a couple of more in the living room 10-12 ft away. I have never fired a .45 but rarely find the grips comfortable when I pick them up. #firearmtraining. If youre being attacked or in the process of deterring an oncoming attack, fear can have an affect. You have renewed my faith in man. If I am just going to the range with my son, I prefer the .45. Penetration of this length and the tissue, blood vessel and organ damage/destruction that follows is vital to circulatory collapse. Sign up for new product alerts, company updates, and more! JavaScript seems to be disabled in your browser. That will put anything down.But if it comes time to kill a man should there be any fun in it. and I guess $$.. When they strike, the bullets rotate, and more of their surface hits the body. It is all in the throat (Leade) and where the bullet contacts the rifling. Rounds were literally ranked on the basis of temporary cavity volume, with penetration and permanent cavity ignored. The saga will never end. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. At 10-20 yards I want a .45. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! Which would put a bullet in the lower chest area with variance of the bullet which can be 2-3 or even 5-6. I know I prefer .45ACP. I like the P227 better. Also the .45 will ring your ears like hell and most self defense scenarios are you are not wearing ear protection. Its too small. Now let me add a little something about 9mm vs .45. If you carry, you owe it to everyone to be as proficient as possible. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. The .357sig does have very impressive ballistics. That still dont make them experts but better than the average person. Pistols are primarily used for close combat. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. 5.56 NATO in .223 Rem could result in failures. Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. Maximum velocity is achieved only at barrel exit, then slows during flight through the viscous median known as our environment (air). The results may surprise many as it did myself. In September 2014, LooserRounds posted an article titled FBI Training Division Justifies 9mm Caliber Selection.
